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Foosbowl IV

zekefooser Posts: 176 10/19/2008	zekefooser Posts: 176 I was surprised the turnout was so weak. There were a lot of players that showed up for the league and didnt play the BYP and singles. BYP 1 Pinalyzer / Zeke $120 2 Eric B / Pat L 3 Nick / Mike S Singles 1 Zeke $70 2 Nick 3 Doug
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Daniel Posts: 135 10/20/2008	Daniel Posts: 135 I would not be surprized most rookies don't want to donate to open events. What was the turn out? -- http://www.netfoos.com/account/37/player_stats/505.html
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pinalyzer Administrator Posts: 122 10/20/2008	pinalyzer Administrator Posts: 122 I just think that even though people "donate" in other sports/games to play with the "Big Boys" it would seem the culture in many places is that a person doesn't want to play if they don't have a chance in winning in foosball. When I played in Fargo and Pittsburgh this was not the case and people just wanted to play even if it meant they wouldn't win a match all night...they played because they wanted to play the game. What in some areas does it not have the players that just want to play and a few dollars (after all we are not talking about much money) is not that much. Is it because in some areas players are riducled if they play bad or lose...I remember when Tucson had some foos bullys and a person's manhood was questioned or womanhood. What are other peoples thoughts on this? The Pinalyzer -- Pinalyzer You have been Pinalized
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Fear.the.2nd.pass Posts: 58 10/20/2008	Fear.the.2nd.pass Posts: 58 You all have to remember Phoenix rookies don't like playing in tournies. The league is a great way for them to get their foos fix without getting handled by people like Nick, Doug, or any of the people that play on Saturday. Billy is slowly but surely getting them to come out more often to help their game grow to were they can compete at a new level. Besides Zeke, and Penile-implant-alyzer need to avoid those stinking rookies anyway, cause they tend to get the rookie beatings from them.
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BillyBoy Administrator Posts: 1479 10/20/2008	BillyBoy Administrator Posts: 1479 We had maybe 10 in singles and 8 teams in doubles. Foosbowl I, II, III had 40+ people. I expected less this time, since Tucson had just been up a few weeks ago, but I figured we'd get around 30, and instead had only 17. I could talk a lot about some of the "reasons". Maybe because we just had a big event a few weeks ago. Maybe because the last one had so many people that we had a lot of delays. Maybe we started too early. Maybe we started too late. Maybe this or maybe that. I will tell you that my only goal all along has been to make the whole thing bigger and better, and you can bet that I've thought a lot about how to attract the most people. EVERYONE has an opinion, but I will give you mine: pretty much everyone's opinion is wrong. There is no real "reason" for good or bad turnouts. No matter what you may come up with, we've done it before, and it has not worked just as often as it has. For example, the biggest whine for awhile was about our Saturday start time. For a long time, we often didn't start till 9pm or later. We did this because that is when the most people would be there. A bunch of people complained that that was the reason the turnouts had suffered. What they do not understand is that we had been down that road several times. What they do not understand is that when you are a foosball player (more than any other sport) you have a natural compulsion to look at a situation, generate a "solution" to it, and then assume that you are right about it. In truth, each time we had enforced a strict start time, the turnouts got worse. Nonetheless, we tried it yet again starting early this year. The first two weeks went very well (about 25+ players). Started at 8 on the dot. No delays. No 2nd singles tournament. Then, after two weeks, voila - we were back to 5-6 teams, for no reason. We've been there ever since. Still starting at 8 precisely. So, in the end, the same thing happened yet again - the turnouts are worse than last year, when we ran later. So, armed with this knowledge, we may end up starting a little later again since that ends up working out better. And when this happens, we will again hear endlessly from those that know better. Same thing with the website. There are several reasons I didn't prioritize getting the new website up. But one of the big ones is that I already knew that it didn't matter very much. Of course, I am not saying that it helps NOT to have a site. I am saying that it makes little difference. You know how I know this? I think you can figure that out by referencing the preceding paragraph And, again, you may notice that very few people post here, and I think you'd have a hard time finding even one person at the tournament on Saturday that would not have been there if we had no website. Think about it. I am a person who's spent a lot of time screwing with foosball. I've spent $20k on brand new tables. I've organized a league. I've run most of the tournaments. I've built the site. I've tracked the stats and posted them. I've called everyone a thousand times. You can take it as you want, but it is a fact that I've done more than anyone else. A lot more. Probably 100 times more than anyone else. This doesn't make me "right" about everything I say. But I think anyone who doubts that my "opinion", and especially my observations, carry a lot of weight is simply a fool. That said, here is my opinion and my observations: It doesn't matter. No matter what you do, you may get a lot of people, or you may get few, based upon pretty much nothing material at all. Any fool can look at a good turnout and name all kinds of reasons for it. But once you obtain an IQ of 85 or higher, you can recognize that none of those "reasons" added up to shit the other 20 times they were in place. You simply cannot count on anything. (Well, except for complaints. You can definitely count on those. )
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zekefooser Posts: 176 10/20/2008	zekefooser Posts: 176 What surprises me is that there were plenty of people from the league, but most didnt play the BYP or OS. I was just expecting those people (Casey, TJ, Guy etc) to play. My theory behind the rookies not wanting to play the regular events is the following. I have noticed that most Phoenix fooser's have a really bad table etiquette, pretty much a lot of phoenix foosers cry, complain, yell, during matches. This doesnt make it very inviting for someone starting to play to want to compete. Who the fuck wants to play against cowbow and his immature and disrespectful way of playing? Every time Billy plays and any slop goes in, he bitches and moans, and his game goes to shit. You guys dont beat Nick very often but when he is losing he has a nasty attitude during the match. He starts talking, making little comments to try to get in your head, etc. I like all you guys off the foosball table, but sometimes the attitude while playing is simply rotten. I dont ever see the better Phoenix players trying to help the rookies get better. I dont play there often, but in the times i've been to phoenix tournies, I've never seen anybody telling somebody else how they can get better, etc. Of course not everyone is like that, and here's a lot of guys that play the game the right way, without complaining or acting like a baby when something doesnt go right like Eric B and others. Most foosers in Tucson are very good sportsmen, and I personally always try to help the new players by showing them how to play the right way. I even do that anytime I go to Phoenix. So the fact that the best tucson foosers are good sportsmen I think is one of the reasons why a lot of the Tucson rookies dont mind paying their 5 bucks and playing even if they know they wont win. -zeke
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BillyBoy Administrator Posts: 1479 10/20/2008	BillyBoy Administrator Posts: 1479 This is a two-part reply to Zeke's last post. I have to break it up over two posts, because the JitBit guys used the 4000 character limit "varchar" for their forum database entries, for some unknown reason ... FIRST, A PERSONAL RANT BORNE OUT OF INSECURITIES (skip this if you don't care): I always have found it odd how people interpret "good sportsmanship". I just live by the truth, Zeke. If something happens and I point it out and you don't like it, it isn't my problem. And, any battle I've had has always been personal; I am sure that you've never seen me disrespecting others. You said "every time Billy plays and any slop goes in, he bitches and moans". But before incriminating me, you should at least be completely accurate. If you believe that I "bitch and moan" about "any" slop (in a game where it is nearly impossible not to have "any" slop), then you should to pay closer attention. The proper statement would be "sometimes when Billy plays and 25 random events in a row go against him, he gets pissed off". (I had plenty of "slop go in" against me on Saturday, but did you hear me "bitch and moan"? In fact, I didn't care at all - precisely because it was normal.) You may choose to believe that what I say is completely subjective and has no degree of truth. However, how proud of that assessment can you be when you haven't walked in my shoes? I view "sportsmanship" as a respect for the game, nothing else. If two people played an awful game, and then the winner says "good game", it never sat right with me. Sure, he's being a "nice guy", but is there really a need to modify reality just to be nice? Instead, I am the guy who shakes hands, and says "awful game" (pretty much exactly what happened when I played Pat L. on Saturday, btw). Some people do not catch this subtlety. And heaven forbid that the loser makes the same (true) statement about the same match. Just what makes it fine for the winner to say something that is true, but wrong for the loser to say it? I do not feel it is "good sportsmanship" to take a regional title due to an arrangement with the person in the king seat and then not even mention it when you are congratulated on a national board. I want to stress here, Zeke (because of the impersonality of the internet and the ease of which statements are taken in the worst possible way) that this is not something I hold against you. In fact, when the point came up amongst friends/players, all I said was that I was surprised you didn't mention it. I could believe that you honestly didn't really even think about it. Hell, for all I know maybe it wasn't even true. You've always seemed like a good and honorable guy the whole time I've known you. But my point is that I have not walked in your shoes, so I am not going to pass judgment on you. You should do the same.
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BillyBoy Administrator Posts: 1479 10/20/2008	BillyBoy Administrator Posts: 1479 NEXT, THE REAL POINT (about player's attitudes, etc.): All that crap aside (and more to Zeke's real point, anyhow): yes, I agree that for some reason there has long seemed to be a greater proclivity for "bad behavior" amongst the Phoenix player base than the Tucson base. In fact, I cannot recall any Tucson fooser behaving poorly at any time (though I'm sure I must be missing something!) . You guys truly are class acts in general. Some of the Phoenix players have been known to get crabby in the past, and without a doubt that could discourage a new player. I will not condone or defend that kind of thing, but I do want to make several points on this observation that I think are important: 1) That type of thing has been greatly diminished. Even the famous cowboy has been a pleasure to play with over the last six months. (Sure, he still gets wound up during matches, but that will never change ) 2) I don't know that this has much to do with the poor turnout. The reasons are both (1) above, and also the fact that we had much better turnouts (new players included) 1-2 years ago, with much of the same crew. Also, remember that only one month ago we had about 30 Phoenix players for the last big event. 3) I think your statements about the experienced players not helping the newer players is not accurate. I know you wouldn't just make that up, but I think you just haven't really seen it. (Probably because you are normally in town only for the biggest - and most competitive - events.) Generally speaking, though, a lot of the veteran guys really do spend time with the new guys quite often. I even noticed Nick (who insists he is the worst teacher around) spending a lot of time with one of our new players last week showing him all kinds of stuff. And you cannot stop T.J. from teaching stuff - I think he likes that even more than playing. Nonetheless, your point is still valid. Everyone in Phoenix (myself included) needs to look to Tucson as a model of both sportsmanship and excellence. I don't know what it is about the Tucson area that breeds the kinds of players you guys do. <em>edited by BillyBoy on 10/20/2008</em>
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Ben Posts: 5 10/21/2008	Ben Posts: 5 as one of the rookies you guys seem to be speaking of, here's my two cents.... as far as "playin the Big Dogs" it's hardly a donation when you walk away from the table learning a new pass or a new shot, and alot of times just some common sense, that comes from years of playing. most if not all the new guys would agree. with all do respect to your skills, i dont consider you guys a threat, i consider you practice. you make me a better player and thats what practice is for, thanks.(really) if i was to puss out and only play guys on my level it would take me twice as long to beat all of you... alot of guys from Phoenix (and Zeke), have takin the time to show me some of what they know. Nick improved my defence by 50%, Tj took time to help me with my pull and Mike showed me a great way to square it off, Zeke gave me some homework on my fiveman (thanks bro) and no one has ever inspired me to play the game more than Billy, hes a great advocate for the game, a hell of a recruiter and the reason Ben Z. and I got on board in the first place, thus indirectly lining some of your pockets... witch i consider money well spent. Sportsmanship is conformance to the rules, spirit, and etiquette of sport. i do agree that the Tuscon guys are impeccable "sportsmen" but i disagree Phoenix guys are lacking...were just not you. some guys have there moments, but i dont see any disrespect. every sport I've ever played has Michael Jordan's and Dennis Rodman's, it keeps things from getting mondane and repetitive. the trick is to not go all Mike Tyson and bite someones damn ear off. The point here was to say thank you to the guys who took the time, and especially billy. and to the guy who said " You all have to remember Phoenix rookies don't like playing in tournies. The league is a great way for them to get their foos fix without getting handled by people like Nick, Doug, or any of the people that play on Saturday." well. fancy pants... ill see you at the next tourney....and the next one, and the next one....untill i consistently whoop your ass, then, I'll see you at the one after that. Later, Phoenix Rookie. (and new league champ) <em>edited by Ben on 10/21/2008</em>
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zekefooser Posts: 176 10/21/2008	zekefooser Posts: 176 I'm glad to know that you guys try to help the rookies get better. I think this is important to help promote the game and grow the player base. I'm glad to hear that Nick is actively helping others. With that said, I'm still curious to know why the people that were there didnt play. I dont care about the ones that didnt show up, i'm curious why the ones that did show up didnt play. Maybe you can ask them next time you see them. Everyone will have their reasons, but maybe you can find something interesting. Also, i do agree with Billy that this past weekend he didnt bitch and moan about slop. I was pleasantly surprised. But that's not the important point i was trying to make. My point is that when people start acting pissed and talking crap (to themselves or the opponent) during match, etc, that type of behavior may cause some beginners from playing. I'm sure there's a ton of factors that affect why people dont play, but i'm sure this doenst help.
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zekefooser Posts: 176 10/21/2008	zekefooser Posts: 176 pinalyzer wrote: I just think that even though people "donate" in other sports/games to play with the "Big Boys" it would seem the culture in many places is that a person doesn't want to play if they don't have a chance in winning in foosball. When I played in Fargo and Pittsburgh this was not the case and people just wanted to play even if it meant they wouldn't win a match all night...they played because they wanted to play the game. What in some areas does it not have the players that just want to play and a few dollars (after all we are not talking about much money) is not that much. Is it because in some areas players are riducled if they play bad or lose...I remember when Tucson had some foos bullys and a person's manhood was questioned or womanhood. What are other peoples thoughts on this? The Pinalyzer When i was starting, i would look forward to playing good players because it was really entertaining, and I knew it would make me better. -zeke
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pinalyzer Administrator Posts: 122 10/21/2008	pinalyzer Administrator Posts: 122 First of all...Thanks Billy...For another tourney and I was really amazed at how your game is progressing. You are keeping your head and that calm is giving you a chance in the game. I watched your game agasinst Pat and played you and I think you are just a step away from the next level. As far as sportsmanship and the like...I saw with my own [place your own stupid ass, I've seen them all before saying]inalyzer eyes the way Tucson crowds went down to nothing when Ditto would get all worked up when playing or before that Marcie. The only players that would pretty much play were the tough or experienced and not too many new players would last out the bullying. I think that Phoenix has always had strong characters which makes you guys strong players and you have to make a decision on what is more important winning the match or building the base. I have chosen building the base and I think that a lot of Tucson has as well, we play tourneys with our daughters, sons, and wifes, we try hard to win but having to represent ourselves on the table with a family member has trained ourselves to keep a civil attitude. I can't think of a top fooser that hasn't played many tourneys with a family member that is a beginner...that hits the ball into their own hole, gives the ball to the other forward time and again and people see how we respond and we can't just lose it or as in my case my daughter will not talk to me, I sometimes suck and I do complain but I try to bring a smile and helpful attitute to the tourneys, but remember it takes a while for the effect to diminish, the effect of..if I play with these guys they will make me feel like shit. Dan and Jeremy took over after Bob and Ed and all the others that tried and it took them a year or more to build up what we have here in Tucson. If Ditto or Marcie were still playing here we would not have been able to do this regardless of their efforts. Draws also make the event stale, I think that Dan has really provided some interesting ways to promote foosball. I worked for one of the greatest foosball promoters in history..Bryan Bennet out of Denver and he really opened my eyes to what can be done. I thought run the tourney and they will come...he always looked at drawing those that didn't normally come out and new foosers. I love that in Tucson we seem to get a new fooser every week and this helps when the regular foosers decide to have a life. The hi-low and the amatuer and beginner singles are fun events and it takes time. So...Billy and Phoenix I think of a lot of you as extended family and as with anything it takes effort as Billy has shown-represented and as he has said not every tourney will have a high turnout but rookies should feel welcome not just the tough ones like Ben but the ones that just like to play. My thoughts and Thanks once again Billy for all your hard work...keep it up! The Pinalyzer -- Pinalyzer You have been Pinalized
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Double Wall Banker Posts: 2 10/21/2008	Double Wall Banker Posts: 2 I agree with Ben, its hardly a donation when you walk away with a new passing technique or new tips on your shot. I personally have learned alot from Bill and from T.J. I appreciate the time they have taken to give new tips on my game. The tips from them have helped my game, which still needs front man work, my goalie skills are pretty good, but gotta work on my 5 bar passing and my 3 bar. I also have learned some things from watching Zeke's youtube videos, unfortunately I havent had the opportunity to talk to Zeke in person. I dont get out to the Sat. tournies very often due to work schedule, but I will make it out when my schedule allows me to. When I do make it out, I might be "donating" my money for a while, but will be learning something new every time I play, and then one day, get to the level of some of the more experienced players here in Phx. Thanks again Bill for another great league, looking forward to the next one to try and dethrone the new champs (The Bends). We are due for another championship, now that one of my teammates has more medals than I do. Thanks again to everone that has helped me get to where my game is now, and thanks to everyone ahead of time that might beat me, but make my game better.
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Fear.the.2nd.pass Posts: 58 10/21/2008	Fear.the.2nd.pass Posts: 58 Well it's nice to see people posting again. As for all the people that do come out and play on Saturdays, there's always a person willing to help the rookies to improve their games. This is the best way to grow the foos scene. As for me I look forward to loosing to the newbies, that helps me to focus on how my game needs to adapt and grow again. As for Nick, I don't fear him one bit. It's always fun to beat him. Also I do whatever I can to help out the new rookies whenever they have questions. If I draw a new rookie and lose it isn't because of them, it's because I didn't do what needed to happen for us to win. PS Ben-The beatings are coming for you and your weak shot buddy. LOL 2nd PS TJ had other things to attend to that night, otherwise he would stayed and put the rookie beatings on you all. <em>edited by Fear.the.2nd.pass on 10/21/2008</em>
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